he had been arrested already on a $50 million bank fraud, and we'll go through the details which are extraordinarily hilarious and stupid and sad. but he had been arrested already, and people are taking bribes from him and laundering his money as if somehow he's not wired by the feds? extraordinary. >> let me stop you there because we've got to get into him. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> next, catherine herridge appeared on c-span's "washington journal" to discuss her new book on the threat of home grown terrorism in the u.s. this is about 45 minutes. "washington journal" continues. host: fox news correspondent catherine herridge joins us on homegrown terrorism. you were in new york when 9/11 happened.

you set up your book by asking a question. you share an anecdote about being in guantanamo bay. guest: one of the things i try to do in the book is take you along into the investigation -- into the courtroom, san diego, to investigate this new generation, what i call al qaeda 2.0. what we see is this new generation is using our technology against us in a way that we never sought a decade ago. i call them a new digital jihad ist. but the this new leader is emailing or blogging, he is kind of like a facebook friend from hell, and that is how he spent as idolatry on hate.

host: you look at a lot of the terrorists who have perpetrated things over the last decade. take us through how connected he is. guest: the book began with a simple question. one of my colleagues asked me after fort hood, how are americans old enough to remember 9/11 are willing to turn back on their own country less than a decade later. i could not get my mind around what happened on 9/11. you have the fingerprints of this man who has become a household name, but at that time was very unknown. in many of these cases like the one we saw in seattle last week is that individuals that are home grown, they are followers of his lecture and ideology on the web.

he went to engineering school here in the united states and was born here. he went overseas and came back. he became a cleric, a leader. he was able to make connections and find people to be part of his cause. the evidence is overwhelming that he was a player in dunn/11 itself. -- 9/11 itself. one person said to me, there has always been a question that bought a to the investigators. two of the 9/11 hijackers were in the united states in january 2000. mohammad bring peopley shak

that speak no english to the get go of san diego unless there was someone there to meet them. the person was alawacqui. he met one-on-one with the hijackers in san diego. i have been inside that room. it is a very small and private and intimate place. the documentation that the isolation the book show that it was not a series of coincidences, but the evidence of a critical relationship. host: we are talking about her new book. how much of this is home grown

terrorism in the united states? we heard about people coming over to the united states. the 9/11 people spoke virtually no english. but you talk about people that were born in the united states, .econd generation guest: i say in the book that the next chapter may be hard to fight, because you find american center -- said a sense at the center of it. [unintelligible] -- what i argue in the book is this new american generation. this group understand us and our

systems and how to use them against us. one example -- the idea that printer cartridges packed with explosives would detonate over the eastern seaboard of the u.s. one of my contacts said he believes that the devices had been timed based on the fedex and ups tracking systems. only an american would think about using that to launch a plot like this. the threat of the future may not be on the same scale as 9/11. it has a component that is more insidious. they understand our system and us as well. host: us get to the phones. portland, maine, independent line. caller: the most insidious thing is when the media refuses to

look at the actual history of things. [unintelligible] these attacks are aimed at demonizing the american people. we all understand around the world that these have banned myths perpetrated on the united states -- these have been myths portrait on the united states. can you, a it onl-awlaki having lunch at the pentagon? guest: i show in the book that he was a guest of the office of

general counsel. nearly 80 people were invited to that one. what is important is it shows me a pattern. at that time, he was an e-mom around town in washington. i revealed documents that showed right after 9/11, he was interviewed, four * by the fbi. there was a split view of him in washington. some were highly suspicious of his contacts with three of the nine hijackers on flight 97. then he was seen as a moderate, go to guy that could build a bridge between that world and the united states. writing about at lunch at the pentagon was really upsetting on many levels. when you look at his contacts,

it was with three of the five hijackers on flight 77. that was the flight that flew into the pentagon. when he was invited back there as a guest speaker, it was like a thief returning to a scene of the crime. you can imagine him walking into the building and marveling at the destruction that his guys were responsible for. caller: i was wondering how you feel about how infiltrated we are in this country because of our immigration policies and the lack of following up on these people? for years, we had people coming into our country freely. how infiltrated do you think we are and on what levels? guest: i mention that anwar had

a helper in san diego. he was a facilitator for the hijackers in san diego. he helped them find apartments and get jobs at the gas station -- all of these things to help these people who spoke no english. modar came here as a bogus asylum seeker. he was a somali refugee. he actually was an anti- national. during that period, there was an effort to exploit our immigration system, and an effort to exploit our system against us byan anwar. one of them claimed to be a foreign student in colorado and

got money, about $20,000 for school. you never would have gotten that money if they knew he was an american citizen. host: -- he appeared to be foreign-born. you document on how some tried to find their way to get him on violations. they put the wrong social security number down. when he came back into the country, law enforcement officers could get him. take us through that. guest: right after 9/11, al-aw laki was a prime target because of his contacts. i interviewed the case agent that put the award -- arrest

warrant together. when he came here as a student to go to the university, he claimed to be a for national to get the scholarship money. he lied about his place of birth on his social security application. host: it is significant because? guest: everytime he used that number on his passport, it was a continuation of the fraud. to get the arrest warrant, it was a holding charge. you want to pick this person up for whatever it is and put pressure on them. in october 2002, he entered the united states and was held at jfk international airport for hours because of this outstanding warrant for his arrest.

an fbi agent in northern virginia ordered his release the the war was still active for his arrest. what i showed in the book is the defense surrounding 2002 -- there are three possibilities. the fbi was trying to make him an intelligence asset. they believe he was a friendly contact. or they were trying to track him for intelligence. i argue in the book that things did not go well for obvious reasons, because i have yet to meet a member of congress, when i show them the arrest warrants and the circumstances in which it was pulled, that it is familiar to them. host: judith, a democratic caller. caller: i am a little concerned. last night i watched the afterward program and i saw a

man with a strange name. he was interviewed by ted. he talked about the horrible muslim threat in this country. he used some many inflammatory words. there were many that were just wrong. any 75 year-old news junkie like myself knew that there were some errors. i look at the king committee in congress that tries to investigate moslems. now i see you. i know many of you are hooked up with david that runs around with mccarthy attitudes to american universities. i see you are with fox news. i think it would be a shame for

a few muslims criminals to begin to characterize a whole community as terrorists. this is a danger that we have to look to you. there was a japanese internment during the second world war. and we are not an innocent people, when it comes to scapegoating. guest: i lay out a very factual anwar and thoser that follow his doctrine of hate. one secretary said we have to figure out where to draw the line. in britain, we decided that we will not use religion to draw this line. we will say the terrorists on one side and everybody else on

the other side. there is an effort t .. have to avoid that. host: catherine herridge of fox news. how do you find the balance between protecting civil liberties and second-generation americans, and doing the investigative work you are doing? one of the nuances you are talking about is looking at -- muslims, who were bo >> just in my work i follow wherever the facts lead becauset i cover a 10-year. i some of them are converts to islam. there is no question. i would argue that the islam they are practicing is not the

islam of most muslim americans. iis is as i call it a digital g hyde or an ideology of hate. i can tell you that when you looked, what you see is someone who leads a very double life. one of the things i try to bring out in the book is that in manya respects this man is a fraud, whether it was defrauding man w $20,000 to go to school, pretending that he couldn't remember the hijackers from san diego, which is what he did wite the fbi. first and foremost.te he had quite a long rap sheet preprinting himself. then on the other hand he would he picked up for soliciting prostitutes in san diego. u a similar church here in the washington d.c. area. one of the threats in the book is on the search for his mug shot because you can get a much out of almost every hollywood celebrity, but you can't seem t, get a much out of a guy on then

cia's kill or capture list.ust one of the questions i asked is why is it that the government doesn't make better use of this information to discredit himenta because this would seem to be ao obvious way to do that.in t that in the book i interview aid young man who had worshipped atd his mosque in san diego. he says very clearly in the book he's giving them a bad rap. >> you do when yen.yoig the voice of the analysis. how do you as a correspondent think about protecting civil liberties and protecting peoplel in the way that you just brought up, making sure things don't go too far as far as that. >> well, i don't think there is some mullen in the book where i am not trying -- drawing on myy factual account and what i havev been able to find.o fi. one of the things i lay out isrt

that after fort hood attacked the administration the better part of four months to call it an act of terrorism. ford had was not a drive-by n shooting. it was clearly something else. it fits the definition of of back -- act of violence. >> republican column. hi. c-span.org hello. >> host: hi. i h >> caller: and have a common our question. i lost an earlier program aboutg the debt crisis and how we can bring home our troops and not ou have to fight these terroristths wars overseas. w are we at an advantage out that we will be able to bolster our orders, bring our troops, be able to watch what goes onou within the country, and keep ann eye on these homegrown terrorists? >> guest: that is a goodegro question. one of the things i leon in the ook is where the war and terror

is going next. if you want to understand where it is going and what it will take to win it this is a book a booknt to get. what i show is that terrorism in many respects is like water. it takes the path of least take resistance. path you move one way and it moves the weather the bid would we have seen is that al qaeda was traditionally in pakistan. we see franchise operationsrance popping a binyamin. also in somalia. then you have this on run, anyou component. in many respects the threat isnt more complex and more drivers because on september 11 al qaeda was like a fortune 500 company with c-span.org as the ceo. now it's much more like a franchise operation. i know senses that the three areas the u.s. intelligence community is achaean very hard,. number one, the pipeline beforet his death, number two, home runs the purcell's uses that as

justification to launch attackse as we get toward the tenthet clo anniversary. will these affiliate's kind of step up to fill a void? so i don't think it is as simpl1 as we pull them troops from one area and bring it into the united states. mak unfortunately, relief facing very tough challenges. percy just outlined three big concerns.riti take us through the translation of what that mightes h mean.n fo what other concerns about places that could be a test of tolerable positions, how do you prepare if quality said, it passively services. >> guest: last l week inha seattle, a case where we had two young men wanting to launch anua attack on military installations near fort lewis in seattle. they were inspired by this

by ic in yemen. he was angry at the fact thathe the administration had put him on this hit list. now, the reason that these twots men were stopped is that they went to purchase weapons andeo someone was suspicious and and alerted the authorities. so one of the things l.a. at in. the book is that the future may not be a series of september 11th but a series ofie smaller scale at temps on the united states and hopefully notm successful attempts.u. it is no accident over the last couple of months and if you go on to these websites what they are supporting is the small scale by individual.ale, or indi it is a sign of the disintegration of al qaeda proper, but also a sign that they believe that this ideology that they have been successfulle create on the internetreat has found a very small minoritya of people in this country, but

nevertheless it has done some traction. >> host: the eighth alleged plot in two years. the eighth such conspiracy in the last two years. rresislamic congress have been arrested for plotting a fort sea hood style attack. >> guest: this is the very story that i'm talking about. and this particular case is concerning because it wast disrupted not because the fbi was aware, but because someone said forward. it was, of course the motherd, s right thing to do, but i wouldto point out that there are some cases that are very much under the radar. in the summer of 2009 there was an attack on iraq permit center in arkansas. the man who was the allegedthe shooter in that case is a convert who traveled to yemen to and spent 18 months there and disappeared into the training

camps. senator john kerry and the foreign relations committee have an excellent report that they did a er a year ago called yemen, the ticking time bomb, which catalogs the number ofnumb americans who have traveled to yemen and the number of prison converts that have traveled toav yemen as well as. >> host: let's go to seattle, washington where it is calling in the dark deadline for. >> caller: good morning. you know, i live in south seattle. ttleve very close to where the slammic center is. iic have probably seen these guy but i wanted to say was just a r general comment to the american people. has nothing to do the terrorists or anything like that but has to do with our foreign policy. we support monarchs and despot's of the middle east, support for s of the if you listen to what they were saying, they have a point. h it has nothing to do with islamm but their policies. so without a change in thesen ts

policies what is going to to happen, this will continue.ne add just want everyone to charts are read and understand rverything they can about the middle east and one of four policies doing.. >> guest: i'm glad you raised that point. would like to give you an illustration from a boat, which i think those people what they need to know. individuals who have really bachmann to i this hateful way f life. i was in guantanamo bay. is sof the last court appearances for theanmo september 11th suspects before the attorney general announced it would go to federal court inw the southern district of newhe york which was ultimately reversed. one of them in t io miss his family and the family of osamas bin laden are friends. kind of like al qaeda royalty. he takes the legal pad and makes this paper airplane. ♪ acss toss the court room and one nspiratoo-conspirators. and he opens the serb plan.ee

both men stood laughing.and botn i say to myself, have to find out what was going on. i later learned on the inside of the paper o airplane he wrote te flight numbers or the tell numbers for the jets.mbfor for me that image of the military court and the paper airplane and these two suspectst in effect mocking s7ra years after the attacks. >> host: catherine herridge for fox news. her new book is called "the next wave: ohon the hunt for al qaeds american recruits."x one of our followers wants to know, this. amand why she thinks terrorist attack us. please ask her why she thinks o they hate us. for this just start with that. >> guest: part of the book,artht but i try to do is take you lone on this investigation. you get to thes interviews, the documents.

we kind of discover the storyisr about the cleric and his followers together.ogether. it is very much in action adventure. i am not suggesting people sit down and read his stuff on thesl internet, but it might be not af bad idea because once you start to read his writings and listen to his videos you see that anwar al-awlaki is incrediblyredibl effective and in my opinion wha. he does is he effectively breaks down this cultural identity of a people who are american citizens cid makes them feel ultimately like victims. this is the justification forthe this launching out or lashing o out against the united states. it is a very hard idea to get your mind around, and that is one of the reasons i tell the story.ee the when you see these guys inse con and how they behave, you don't need much of a gut check to know haat they are not like us and don't think like us and certainly don't respect our civil liberties and freedoms ret that we have.s

so i think this is a greatink question and one that we are still trying to answer. what is clear to me is that theq driver of this is the internet t cid all of those associated capabilities. respects the anwarhe al-awlaki is on the fbi killer capture list in many ways it will be hard to raise this legacy of t hate >> host: a republican calling from houston, texas.ted. host:ller: good morning. am i on the air? y >> host: yes. with >> guest: >> caller: are you familiar with this time? >> guest: no. >> caller: it's for you control both sides of theca problem. l the first world is eating themselves toth death.robl the third world is being starved to death.ird the solution is population. you could actually apply that in the world today with terrorism going on in the country rightro- now as far as the fall the five

events. if you look at obama's numbers there floundering at best.re god forbid something happened in t wo country would be deemed as a terrorist attack. a i further much rise police state u the dallas thing you ever do in your lofty behind the wheel of a vehicle. >> host: i don't really quite did what you're saying. there are scare tacticssa t involved?tas in >> yes, ma'am. probably a reaction, solution. so the one thank you for the question. one of the things l.a. and in this book is documentation that the justice department has gathered over the last couple of years. what you see is that there has been a documented case of home grown terrorism come caseserror- involving american citizens with some type of tied to an era atto -- international terrorist

organization. the numbers are there. people ask me how many people j are there, i can't tell youhere that.in the i can tell you what these cases. are. you see them falling a couple of different patterns.th one, american citizens who have traveled overseas to pakistan od yemen to get training, perhaps ni of the most famous cases is the times square bomber. hze man who traveled to pakistan and get training from the top man and came back to the unitedn states. he drove in suv into timesta dro square and thought he had a - viable explosive device.e counter-terrorism officials say they believe that was a successful attack. the only thing that saved us in that situation was the fact tha the bomb did not detonate. there were other cases when you see people as these attacks but niey haven't had training. they either do it yourself operations. some of these cases we have thee intercepted or disruptive than

three sting operations like the ngainiast year of the am and he tried to detonate a car bomb atn a christmas tree lightingliting ceremony. then you have fort hood where, in my opinion, on accident that you have this in our tilationship between the alleged shooter and anwar al-awlaki. he is elected dear abby era. when people have problems are questions about the fate the renovations they go to him. they try to seek the answers. >> host: during the new york nor times, militants linked to al qaeda advance in yemen. reports, the import city is now virtually surroundeord by gangsf islamist melissa fighters, some linked to al qaeda and have captured at least two towns constant prisons and deleted banks and military depots. the yemeni government is so busy fighting an armed protesters that they have done little to stop the jihad. ou guest:

>>t guest: well, one of thef emerging threat hubs.li it may become afghanistan on c steroids. theis nearly a failed state right now. the president was seriously injured in a mortar attack by the opposition.ion. this is only a unified country over the past 20 years.rsome ar has a history of breaking apart, if you will. what we have seen in the last 45 months is that al qaeda and anher extremists have been a will to develop a firmer hold of a southern part of the country.l that is important. i wish we had a map. fir you can see the proximity.on already a failed state. we also have a big hub.soma it is pretty well understood a that we are starting to see a migration. whenever words you want to use. the reason that happens is theym understand that with the power vacuum there is opportunity for

them. the great thing about a failed state is that it is hard to operate.s no it is a little bit of a double-edged sword. i believe that human is at the center. this one final point. the, the central figures, is really unlike any other that we see.e ader e call it the trifecta. there is among the a formerin guantanamo detainee.rtunately, t people who did not and go backa have a lot of st. croix that they did not have before. you have the americans do a wooden say have rose amazed by have this straw in the west. you have longtime personal aide to osama bin london.- he has that traditional. this is the leaders that we don't see anywhere else withinno

these franchises in the world. >> host: joining us from jackson, tennessee. independent line. >> our you doing? >> good morning. this is a quote from james madison. a standing military force with an hour run executive will not follows his companions to liberty. the means of defense against foreign danger have been always estimate saturnian home. for example, a number of american soldiers have died in combat. for order 55. minimum number have committed of suicide, 407. home." listen to this one. whober of american civilians died worldwide in terrorist attacks last year, eight. 8. minimum number died after beingd struck by lightning, 29. tobacco kills five and a half million people per year arounde the globe. i wish every time c-span would have one of these.ve o >> is on here, please get

professor on dealer on here. >> host: we don't have to use name-calling. tm. >> i would tell you that i lay e out in the but the number of documented cases. we have seen that cases on run terrorism every two to three rnats since january of 2009. i can argue the facts more than i can lay them out for you. you have to decide whether that's ever blonder not if. there is a difference between ai series of car accidents and asie terrorist attack. a terrorist attack is an act of violence to promote a politicalv end. that is why it has the impact. that it does. >> host: conversation on twitter expressing concern forrs raising the level of fear, raising the level of suspicion. and so one of the folks -- on such from of fear and justify

further investigations of privacy off.eed how do you balance the need that a couple of our callers a coupl touchdown for privacy andsa safety? >> well, i wouldn't say in the i course of my reporting that is c had any was proxy.ve i've never had that accusation. i go where the facts lead, and would argue in this book that what you see is real booze onu the ground reporting in no way that you have not often seen. for example, in the book i get this tape from the grouping yemen. people be surprised to learn that first of all the operative wanted $35,000. we don't pay it. i'm just telling you that that number, because it gives you an idea of one of the ways thatra they try and raise money. number two, when i ultimately got thisss message it was buried in a file sharing website that was filled with pornography.

po so they use thesern sites to transmit their messages because they are under the false belief that law enforcement can't go to these types of government computers. and the other thing i would say about the tate is that we had it analyzed by a forensic audio analyst. what he said to us is thaty something called a reverse have been added to the tape. anast. he listened to the tech is sounded like he was in this giant mosque speaking to 10,000 people and had this sense of grandeur to it. it is probably in a closet with his computer tapin-g this thing. so i just show that as an i illustration of what i have done. ied t >> portions of government.ho >> the pw ersonal privacy and security. >> in the book what i explain is

that back in 2006 we have a summit on al qaeda and had a policy shift. they saw we were aggressively looking at people. mdl travels to those countries. they felt that what they needed to do was now look at recruits a and american recruits as ancialy equal standard. number one, they have this recrui travel. number two, because we areth americans and our system is a great system that we have built-in protections. it is harder for law enforcemenn at americans. that is where the rubble hits. the road.its this was not an accident. this was a deliberate decisionae ru go after question recruits for those very reasons. i think that it is a very tough job for law enforcement to know, you know, or to draw the line, especially given the fact that so much of -- so much of the

traffic is driven on the internet in a way that it just wasn't a decade ago. when did that crossed the line from being, you know, unpleasane and hateful speech into something else?hatefu >> host: a democrat. good morning. a two-part question.ood >> caller: can you investigate in your book the involvement ofo homegrown terror? i just read an article about tha northwest being a hotbed forfo extremists who are anti-government and white supremacist. >> that is a good question, and it is probably something.tion. i did not like at that. i looked specifically at what i call this new generation.

these digital g how this. the is as a threat is americans, the first american on the cia killer capture list.he t >> host: one final question. talk to us about your investigative work.kill you take us through your daily life as an investigator working sources and contacts and gettino information and have uncovered affirmation that others have not. >> there are couple of things here. one of the things people findgue about the book is there is a lol of passion. tt ther i think that is there because i am in a military family.ily. on the national security issues are not on the sideline. i think that really is and used in the book. that i dedicate the book to people t who suffer because i understand that this is not b easy for peoe in the services or law enforcement. i have done this work sincemuty. september 11th. before that in the u.k. during

the mainland bombing campaign.o ehis is something have been falling for the better part of it years. i think what you learn over time that there is a substitute for experience and at the end of the day you only have youri had relationship. i have a lot of help from peopll to write this book. i have to say the investigators who dealt with anwar al-awlaki aftt after september 11th, the agent to get the arrest warrant against him release stepped up to the plate to tell the story. one of the things that the book. not in my opinion fully f explained. not because there needs to be blamed by we want to avoid the n same mistake again. a guy who's been at the heart of two major.the het we had him until we let him wal. away. >> host: catherine herridge,

author of "the next wave: on the hunt for al qaeda's american recruits." thank you. >> host: thank you very much for having me. the charge your questions. >> is there and nonfiction opera but you would like to see featured on book tv? send us an e-mail. or to lead us at twitter dot com. >> deadly and difference. a perfect political storm is the subtitle. the former director of fema is one of the authors along with ted shorts. who is in different during training? >> everyone. all levels of government or indifferent. the citizens were in different. at think the media was indifferent. we are all in different to the difference, all the different aspects of the crisis that came together. this is my perspective, the perspective of the last person, the only person who has talked about what happened, the guy at the center of the controversy.

this is my perspective. >> what would you have done differently? >> the way we communicated. we always use as a phenomenon, the talking points. the talking points were accurate. the talking points were out of context. i just crumpled of those talking points and said, yes, we are doing x, y, and see, but that is not enough. two things would have happened. the media and public would have gotten in the cap and the administration would have said, oh, my gosh. we have to help of more the more we are doing now. >> second subtitle, the bush white house and the arms. how is it in different? >> i think there was a failure to fully engaged. a failure to recognize. when we brief everyone about the levees breaching or topping there was a failure to recognize what that meant, i think. there was almost a sense of been

there done that. we have had hurricanes before. why would this be any different. >> and beyond. the failure of us as a country, ordinary citizens, government officials, corporate ceos. the failure to recognize the kind of risk that we face in this country, manmade risk, technological rest, terrorism, whenever it is, the failure to recognize that and really be prepared for it. >> the state of louisiana and the city of new orleans. >> the mayor, as i write, the mayor's failure to order a mandatory evacuation at the time we were recommending it was a real seven. but for that failure we would not have had thousands of people in the superdome. he would not have had people trying to break into the convention